Advice please: I bought a Belgian Mauser (7X57 173g) from a friend and received 60 Hirtenberg rounds with it. It seems to be very old. Where can I find more information on the history and value of the ammunition. I don’t want to use it if it has value.
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From the layout of the printing, I guess the ammunition is from about the 1970s.
Are there any ink-stamped numbers on the boxes? These could perhaps allow to determine the date closer.
In any case, I am afraid the cartridges have no particular collector value. The primers are non- corrosive, which makes them well suited for shooting.
Thank you for the response. See new photo with ink-stamped numbers. Assume it was a batch number as it is the same for all six boxes?
Regarding the value and non-corrosive primers, the rounds have just been upgraded to hunting rounds 
As far as is known in collector circles, the batch number is the date backwards: yy mm dd
But the 4 is meaningless, the date wraps every 10 years. So it could 1st of July 1970 or 1980.
The comment upgraded to hunting rounds sounds to me that these have been re-loaded.
There is an unwritten rule that one should never shoot others unknown handloads.
As a hand loads these have zero collector value
No, not reloaded. I merely referred to using it for hunting purposes.
If’n it were me, I would save the nicest box [or two?] for the collection- they will be worth somewhat more in another 20 years, yea?
Probably yea. Thanks.
Jochem, wrt the HP date codes
According to an earlier post re HP box codes , the 6 digit date code of 400701 should refer to 1974 or 1984 as the first number indicates the second digit of the date.
That thread also mentions (by “Forensic”) that there was evidently an ECRA Bulletin from 2009/2010 with an article from the Curator of the HP-Museum with Definitive info on these HP box date codes. I have looked through my ECRA bulletins for that time and could not find such an article but I am missing a few months from that time period- can anyone confirm that this article exists ?
A 5 digit code evidently started in late 1988 and ended in 2004. Maybe this is the date that the lot numbers first appeared on the headstamp as well ??
Deon - it would be useful to see the headstamp of these cartridges if that is possible please
Brad, thank you for your information. I had had the following message regading 6 digit codes in mind:
.22 Hirtenberger Box of .22 HP-Matic ammo (DATE?)
It was left standing unchallenged by the community and therefore I believed it to reflect the facts.
I will search my files for the 2009 issue of the ECRA newsletter mentioned by PP.
I have found the ECRA article in question.
Well known Austrian authority Josef Mötz published an article in the November 2009 issue of ECRA Researcher about Hirtenberger date formats. The entry number 535-D2 indicates it was only published in the German edition. Therefore I paraphrase here what he wrote about post-WW2 codes for centerfire cartridges:
A) up to about 1960
The date was given in the format “yymmdd” for example 571205 for 5th December 1957
B) from about 1960 to 1988
He shows examples of 5 different variants.
– one 5 digit format
example: 34653
meaning unknown
– four 6-digit formats:
— format “y0mmdd”
y is the last digit of the year; position 2 is always a zero.
Example: 200613 means 13th June of 1962 or 1972 or 1982
— unknown format, example: 346330
The format could be: “y??mdd”
with the meaning of 46 unknown, date could be 30th March, 1963, 1973 or 1983
— format “y0mmdd”
example: 010126 interpreted as 26th January of 1960, 1970 or 1980
Possibly, in this example the normal zero in position 2 is replaced by a 1 to indicate the ammunition was made by another supplier.
— date in clear on military ammunition
format “ddmmyy” as in 210388 for 21st March 1988
C) from 1988 to 2004
lot number in the format: “ynnny”
example: 00012 is lot 001 from 2002 (0 and 2 as first and last digit)
End of paraphrasing part of Josef Mötz’ article.
Regarding the 5-digit code, collector Matthias Seel adds the following thoughts in the January 2010 issue (537-D1):
34653 could be in the format “wwyyd”
ww would be the week number within yy and d the number of the day within the week (1-7).
That means: 3rd day in the 34th week of 1965.
In his opinion a less probable format is
dxxaa - which is to be read backwards:
aa (53) meaning really 35 (35th week)
xx (46) meaning really 64 (1964)
In this case the date would read as 3rd day in the 35th week of 1964.
End of quoting Matthias Seel.
My own observation regarding these formats is that examples 34653 (5-digit) and 346330 (second 6-digit) look surprisingly similar. Could both be the “wwyyd” format described by Seel, only a zero appended to the latter?
And last not least we have what was told to Forensic (see the link in my previous message): the first digit (4 in his example) had no meaning.
We need more Hirtenberger date numbers from the 1960 to 1988 period to get out of this maze.
Edited wording to clarify.
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Thanks for doing this Jochem, although I can’t help but feel that I know less now than when I started.
It will take awhile to absorb all of this but until 1988, the variations do seem to make the “system” unnecessarily complex and yet quite imprecise re the actual year.
However, it does appear that no one is questioning that Lot numbers were used from 1988 (??)
So again, maybe this is the date that the lot numbers first appeared on the headstamp as well ??
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Interesting thread! Just started working on a list of lot numbers to check how each system works out. In order to determine the correct decade I’m using the following confirmed facts:
- No ABC or Nosler bullet load menitioned in 1966 (likely using the Red/white/red box).
- Red/white/red box confirmed as early as 1968.
- Nosler loads offered as early as 1968.
- ABC loads offered as early as 1972.
- Black/red/white/red box confirmed as early as 1978.
Based on this, the 7x57 box above would be from July 1, 1974 (400701).
So again, maybe this is the date that the lot numbers first appeared on the headstamp as well ??
Brad, do you mean headstamps having a subscript number along the caliber?
Regards,
Fede
Fede
Yes, I do mean the subscript number after the “HP” in the HS, which I believe must be some form of lot or production number. I think this is what Josef Mötz also believes. I can provide more details if required.
Also, I thought that the ABC bullet wasn’t introduced until 1974 (HP history Document).
Hi Brad,
Thanks, those headstamps with a subscript exist since the 1970’s. My earliest reference is dated August 1973 and shows a picture of a .223 Remington headstamped “HP2”.
The ABC was presented to the public in 1972 at JASPOWA '72, that was the 2nd edition of the international hunting & sport arms exhibition celebrated between March 2 and 6 in Vienna, Austria (calibers mentioned were: 7x57, 7x57R, 7x64 and 7x65R). Earliest patent application dates from June 18, 1971 and trademark from December 2, 1972.
Regards,
Fede
Thanks Fede - that’s excellent information - so much for the HP factory history !.
I think knowing the exact introduction date of a cartridge is one of the most difficult aspects, because between prototypes, pilot runs, and actual commercial availability to the common public you may find a difference of several years. All dates could be considered correct, depending on the criteria of the researcher.
Here is the first version of a list of Hirtenberger codes in six different formats observed in commercial and military boxes.
The yyn / yynn codes listed at the end are just for reference. These are easy to understand and there is no need to list every one of them.
Edit: See latest post.
Additions and corrections and welcome!
Regards,
Fede
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Wow, Fede, that is an excellent list. Thank you very much.
Update:
Added a few more codes -nothing relevant- and corrected some mistakes.